O&C Take Out

O&C Takeout - Can Fantasies Go Too Far?

Tags: 2012 ,  O&C Take Out

Fun Sex Questions

Can a fantasy go too far?

Share you sexpertise and comment (anonymously) below!

Recently we published a controversial erotic novella featuring abuse themes and force fantasy. The author, Kris Williams, who has published several short stories on our site, also consisting of controversial topics like teacher-student relationships, has received quite a mixed reception of her work.


While this novel is the most popular one we've released yet, some readers have become upset, like this one who wrote, "The boyfriend isn't a Dom he's an abusive partner, unsure of himself and afraid of the need his girlfriend inspires in him so he abuses her, isolates her and potentially affects her job security. I kept hoping she would leave him." And another wrote in, "I'm afraid it seems to sanction violence against the woman he purports to love."

Interestingly, we chose this book because it feels very real, and like the reader above, it made us care about the main character. Will she leave the relationship? Will she get sucked in further? Any piece of fiction that can inspire strong feelings (fear, arousal, joy, etc), is strong fiction, indeed.

This has us wondering, why is it okay to write about crimes, murders, and violence in other entertainment genres like horror novels and movies, crime novels, and even video games, but when an author scratches the underbelly of erotica, and comes up with some dark matter, people freak out and rise up in arms? 

Can a fantasy really go too far? Or, is erotica subject to another double standard?

Let us know your thoughts!

xo
Jordan and Samantha

O&C Take Out is an exciting section created just for our readers. If you think of reading the delectable O&C stories as "eating in," then Take Out is a way for us to order out for opinions, comments, and discussion from our readers. We hope it's informative, inspiring, and fun! To engage in the conversation, simply submit a comment at the bottom of the article. You can keep yourself anonymous by simply using a fake name (your email address isn't necessary to comment). We look forward to reading what our plethora of sophisticated readers have to say!

Originally published January 2012

Comments

• Rich Eubanks
  1/18/2012 1:51:02 AM

  There is a double standard. If a well known photographer takes photos of children in states of undress or positions that are questionable it's art, if an unknown photographer takes them it's child porn. My wife is a retired media specialist (school librarian) and is very strongly against censorship of any kind when it comes to literature. But, even she would prefer I use a pen-name when I write erotica or porn to separate these writings from my young adult and children's writings. I just don't see the need. I write for my intended audience and for my own pleasure and am not ashamed of any of my works. The work in question is not to my liking as a story but, if it's well written then I salute the author!
• Charlotte
  1/18/2012 10:43:04 AM

  Well I think the main question is: "Is abuse/force fantasy erotic? Can it, should it?" I for one think the story is very well written, but it didn't turn me on, which is what erotic is supposed to do, turn on the reader(s). Hence is why I think abuse themes works for crime/horror novels but not for erotica. I wouldn't so much call that a double standard; I just think it's about the context of the genre. BDSM erotica is exciting, sexy, and hot, but only when its consensual, sane, and all in good fun. Violence, abuse, and questioning about whether or not the person or persons in question are consenting, is horrifying/bothersome/disturbing, these words come to mind when you are reading a horror or crime novel, not erotica. Kudos to the author for tackling the topic though, but i don't think it works for erotica or for erotica audiences.
• Julian Finisterre
  1/18/2012 10:45:03 AM

  There is indeed a double standard, but it's the constant double standard that exists throughout society: when sex sells something, well and good; profit is made. But any real consideration of the complexities of sexuality seems just beyond the ken of the many. it is uncomfortable. It's not black or white. And that is where we as erotic writers come in, those of us who understand that so much of life is played out in the shadowier areas, and that shadows are not necessarily to be feared out of hand...but rather acknowledged, and explored by those bold enough. If Ms. Williams, through her writing, has succeeded in bringing about such a strong reaction to her stories and characters, than she has succeeded indeed. Yes, horse-shit writing can stir things up well enough, and does so often enough. But well-crafted writing that dances its readers through the dark places, does so in much more efficient and engaging fashion. The truth just fucking hurts sometimes, and makes some readers profoundly uncomfortable. As it is supposed to. Much of what finds its way into my own fiction is of rather questionable nature as well, or might be perceived as such by mainstream readers. Probably obscene, if the prudes truly held sway. But to reconsider that initial question, I do think fantasy can be taken too far, and in writing, at least, that's the point when literature becomes porn--the bad kind. And I also know that the editors of Oysters and Chocolate have exquisite, edgy and intelligent taste in matters erotic. Fantasies will not taken too far, nor will they be taken anywhere poorly, on these pages. Rock on and peace out. Now I've gotta read her book. ;-) JAF
• Karen
  1/18/2012 10:56:36 AM

  I think most people get a bit taken aback when erotica explores more than just the confines of "turning us on." Yes, that is what erotica is supposed to do, turn on the reader, it is what people expect, but I personally find that there should always be a place for erotica that goes into a deeper, darker surface of sexuality. For instance, Masoch's "Venus in Furs" is a very hot and sexy read, but it was more or less a cautionary tale about how far fantasy can go and explored the fine lines between dominance/submission and just pure insanity. Of course, Sade explored those contents as well. I don't think authors who write strong and edgy content like this do it just to turn us on, they want us to care about the characters, and to maybe even think about the question that O&C has asked here: Can fantasy go too far? Yes, it can, and sometimes, it does. As long as it is well-written and done in good taste, which the author succeeded at doing, then I say the author was doing something write and probably got the response she wanted. Good job :).
• Lady Loves it Rough
  1/18/2012 11:03:14 AM

  This is an interesting question. @RichEubanks - I think photography may require a little more responsibility, because there are REAL subjects involved, so in that case a photo shoot -- whether of something apparently violent, or whatever, should ALWAYS be safe, sane and consensual --otherwise there are real victims. In writing there is more latitude because EVERYONE involved is merely a figment of the author's imagination. So have at it! And if you can get the hackles up on your readers, you've done SOMETHING. @Charlotte - while intelligently stated, you are assuming that NO ONE out there gets turned on by stories about rape and violence. I think to admit that there are people who might would be quite disturbing indeed. For any of you who saw The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (or read the book), the scene where Lisbet is RAPED turned me the fuck on, which really disturbed me deep down. I haven't read this book by Williams yet, but I can only assume I might get the same disturbing mix of pleasure and horror from it if I do. I'm sure there is a market for this book WITHIN EROTICA. Who says Erotica always has to be mainstream sexy and can't provoke feelings of horror if it wants? @JAF I agree, these editors typically put out QUALITY and I love the fact that they don't CENSOR fantasy and don't act as moral police, which would go against the nature of erotica. I am curious, this book seems a bit outside their usual fare, I've noticed a lot of the licorice whips (bdsm) stuff they publish is relatively tame.
• Charlotte
  1/18/2012 11:36:20 AM

  @ Lady Loves It Rough- YOU are the one that is making the assumption...I may not have mentioned that some people are turned on by sex and violence but that doesn't mean that I feel that there aren't people out there that do. Of course there are, otherwise people wouldn't be reading it, people do get some pleasure out of rape scenes in scary/horror genres, it's just that people are afraid to admit it. Like I said, it's the GENRE. At least with scary/horror, as disturbing as it may be to be turned on by a rape scene, you won't feel as guilty for enjoying it because the entire scary/horror novel as a whole isn't just one long scene of violent rape. With erotica, though, to read a story where practically the entirety of it is about abuse, violence, and force fantasy, it's more unsettling for MOST readers. That's my point.
• Lady Loves it Rough
  1/18/2012 11:47:30 AM

  @Charlotte, I see what you are saying.
• JC
  1/18/2012 12:22:45 PM

  It's definitely a double standard. We are exposed regularly to violence in the media but not to sexual behavior of any type unless it is illegal or aberrant in some way. I feel the purpose of art (including erotic writing) is to stimulate an emotional response. The one having the response gets to decide whether they like that response or not. And that determines who the art appeals to.
• Mike
  1/18/2012 12:41:06 PM

  I'm personally repulsed by stories about rape or child abuse, and don't believe they do anybody any good. But many people enjoy good bondage stories, even if they get a little rough, and I don't believe they fall into a category that should be banned. Literature often deals with subjects that are out of the ordinary, or extreme, and it should provoke us, make us think. To the extent that censorship prevents that from happening, I oppose it.
• Emma
  1/18/2012 1:11:01 PM

  Of course there's a double standard in erotica, written and photographic! It might just be because we're conditioned by society: violence in sexual matters is taboo, consensual or not. This doesn't mean that writing about a horrific rape , or extreme BDSM, and treating it like "being in the scene" will never be seen not terribly wrong and exploitive; sometimes it will be. Sometimes it won't-- often depending on the audience. This also means that for some people admitting to being turned on, or even fascinated by, violence is a darkness inside they can't bear to look at. Admitting you're anything but repulsed by a beating in a sexual setting can be frighting. I am not saying that everyone who reads BDSM erotica wants to dash right out and get thrashed-- but that naughtiness is right there, being inappropriate and laughing at our inners-elves. Sometimes it's hard to face that, for some readers.
• azulie
  1/18/2012 3:00:20 PM

  (Please note I am commenting based on the excerpts provided. I did not read the whole story) I think the author is trying to show what a Dom/sub relationship is like, but from the part I read, something is missing. Doms love their subs, in Their own warped way. subs love their Doms and do look at Them as their Protectors, Teachers and if they are lucky, their Masters. The underlying theme of a Dom/sub relationship is trust, believe it or not. The sub trusts her Master unconditionally, and literally hands over her will to Him, by agreement. The Master then trains the sub to be 100% honest with herself (or himself) as the Master uncovers the sub's sexual self, completely. In handing over her free will, the sub agrees to allow the Master to think for her completely, and when she does not, or when she tries to manipulate the situation, then she is punished. But this is all a prearranged agreement. And there are good punishments and bad punishments. In a real Dom/sub relationship everyone understands their role, and what is expected. It is entered into with love, trust, understanding and a way out. In Ms. Williams' novella she tries to portray a world but based on my experience, it's not completely accurate, Maybe this is why it doesn't work for some of the readers who responded? She's taking something that is really supposed to be a beautiful exchange between two consenting adults and mixing it with something that many people feel uncomfortable with - nonconsenting sex and rape. Some subs enjoy forced relations, brutality, humility, but this treatment is discussed and is usually all prearranged. In this story, the woman appears to be thrown into this unaware. I think that is why it doesn't work for some people.
• Jordan LaRousse
  1/18/2012 3:08:06 PM

  Azulie- you are absolutely right. This story is not about a healthy Dom/sub relationship at all. It falls under the much more controversial sub-category of force fantasy and nonconsent. This is absolutely why it rubs people the wrong way. However, force fantasy is as much a part of erotica as any other sub-category. Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses! Keep 'em coming, very fun!
• Kris Williams
  1/18/2012 4:05:48 PM

  I just wanted to say that I love the reactions to my books. It's exactly what I wanted to provoke - uneasiness, shock, but ultimately, love. Azulie, if you had read the entire book you would have known at the ending that Mitch does indeed love Krissy, and she loves him enough to give herself completely to him. If anyone out there is interested in reading a REALLY controversial book on the subject of adolescent abuse, try my book Angel Baby, which is on sale on Amazon.com. It explores much the same theme as Addicted to Love, but is much stronger. The character of Stu is similar to Mitch, in that they both feel out of control loving the girls they do, but Stu goes much farther in his abuse of Angie. I was compelled to write this book. I wanted to show that abusive relationships aren't always confined to adults, and that as Angie finds herself caring for Stu despite his abuse of her, she becomes increasingly confused about herself. It's not a subject that people want to admit interests them, but I believe it needs to be brought out of the closet and examined in a brighter light. Hence my sory of Mitch and Krissy. I wanted to show that not every BSDM relationship is fun and entirely consensual. Krissy could have left at any time, but she chose not to. Why, do you think?
• Jane Anderson
  1/18/2012 4:10:41 PM

  One thing that hasn't been brought up is the setting. The book in question is set (and I've only read excerpts) modern day, which means the old fashioned way of dealing with rape fantasies-- which is to say "oh, they had different rules back then, over there or in that particular harem"-- doesn't work. The author hasn't softened the blow by setting this book in another time and place. Rape-seduction was, in many ways, some of the first widely available hot sex. Historical romances of the late seventies and early eighties were often rape-seduction oriented. Bertrice Small and Kathleen Woodiwiss are two authors that come to mind immediately. So, it seems that readers are reacting to how "real" the fantasy is. And others to how "not like real Dom/sub" relationships. It's a story. If it is well written then it should be able to speak for itself-- great writing is its own best defense. O&C has standards, and I assume they applied said standards to this book. Sex is complicated. Stories like this point that out, vividly. Does that hit some buttons and make people get all double standardy on erotica writers? Absolutely. These are no doubt the same folks who never flinch at a video game hero having sex in a hot tub with two women and then leaping up, grabbing his sword, and hacking people to bloody pieces. (True video game scene, btw.) I'm about to rant about the implication of sex for money that's implicit in much of the advertising we see, but that's off topic, so I'll stop now.
• Ted D'Leyo
  1/18/2012 8:49:36 PM

  Oysters and Chocolate, the kind of site one can admire, because it took no time at all for Jordan to respond deliberately and openly to an issue of importance not just to her 'customers'... far more than that... to anyone who was gifted with a sex and the desire to use it well. I was an early feminist in the hippy era... my sisters fought for an equal identity and to be freed from what was the "systematic abuse of society" for generations. I love Woman. This was a limited excerpt, to be sure, but the picture of a belt, whose buckle, if used as threatened, would have left life long scars and injuries requirilng the emergency room, wasn't a message I was comfortable with sending onor. I don't want my sisters and lovers {or the young who learn from us} to assume they have to submit to that. That Said... I too am an artist, erotic sculptor and poet. I certainly don't want censorship. In fact I want precisely what I see here... the breadth and depth of dialog. Bravo!! {Jordan, you can find me 'back channel' please do... Ted}
• Martha McKinley
  1/20/2012 6:53:18 AM

  Well, everything has just about been said, just not by everyone! I must say that this is some of the most intelligent, informed dialogue I have read in a long time. And I sense a consensus of opinion, which is refreshing, given how polarizing our country has become on every subject it seems. Thank you, J&S, for inviting the discourse. Just a few points to add: I agree that in the genre of Erotica there is usually an implied consensual relationship, and, with BDSM specifically, an accepted set of roles and rules. Often in the latter, we have characters who already know each other's psyches, and are acting out their roles in a tantalizing-to-the-reader sort of way, which allows the reader to feel safe in devouring whatever follows. But how does one discover what one likes? How do partners first begin this type of relationship? And why do they continue it? These are interesting questions. The controversy we are discussing here in what Kris has written, seems similar to the the havoc the Impressionists brought on the art world. Erotica, like all literature or art in general, evolves. Whether it leaves the realm of Erotica and becomes fiction of another sort depends on many factors, much of what has been written about already. Finally, although a total fantasy is occasionally fun to read and write, I prefer, in my Erotic writing, to deal with realistic situations, common problems partners have in their relationships, and how they resolve them. My brava to Kris for taking on this one.
• Jordan LaRousse
  1/20/2012 4:01:03 PM

  I just adore the people who visit our site, you are such smarties and so thoughtful! You don't get this type of dialogue on just any site. And I'm not saying that because most of you agree with my view on this. :P
• Ambrose
  1/20/2012 11:36:09 PM

  I've come rather late to this debate, so apologies. I think the essential element in erotic writing is consensual sex. That doesn't, for me, include scenarios in which one of the parties is abused. That said, there should never be any question of censorship by regulation (unless for criminal activity). People read and view what they want, and that's the way it should be. Kris Williams' tale is not for me, but that's quite beside the point.
• Angela
  1/22/2012 4:51:54 PM

  Isn't erotic fiction all about fantasy? It's fun to read and even more fun to write. Fantasizing about it while doing both is more than half the fun!!

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